View Full Version : Lord what?
10-11-2010, 09:54 PM
So just a thought ...
We are using the title 'Lord' for a lot of people, even people who don't have any title and are just cousins of the rich and awesome. Am I wrong or should there be a different title for, Larson for example.
Not lord, not Sir because that implies a knighted individual, did they use 'Mister' in the way backs?
Please, help me out here!
10-11-2010, 10:03 PM
technically yeah, Lord would only be for the man of the house, but eh, it works. What we've kinda said is that you would only say LORD CASTELL and LADY CASTELL, when referring to Victor and Celeste. The other's would be/could be either Larson, lord Larson, Lady Evelyn, Evelyn, etc.
I'm open to whatever thoughts. Sir would be for knighted individuals, and if you want to say character is knighted based on their history (any male who fought in a tourney for example would probably have been knighted first), that's fine by me.
10-14-2010, 06:01 AM
Generally, I always figured we were using 'lord' as a courtesy title, especially given that we have not gone super feudal and have not appointed different titles apart from King, Prince, Princess, Province Lord and Banner Lord. Given we don't have Viscounts, Earls, Dukes, etc (and it'd probably get tedious if we did) it'd be hard to say who gets what title. So I figured lord was just the courtesy for all with noble blood.
Sir (and madam) is not necessarily indicative of those with knight status. It was considered a catch all for basically everybody from commoner to king/queen though it was considered polite to refer to king/queen/noble as your highness/your grace/lord/lady at least when first introduced.
Master and Mistress were used for lesser nobles, so that's a possibility, however it was also used for the merchant class as well.
I personally feel that using Lord/Lady Surname to indicate the heads of the houses and then Lord/Lady Firstname to identify the rest is easy and less likely to get all complicated.
10-15-2010, 05:52 PM
Well I know when Jenn made the game she was thinking of A Song of Ice and Fire, and the way titles work in that universe is:
- anyone of noble birth is accorded the courtesy title of Lord. Even bastards if they are acknowledged (meaning daddy publicly admits yes that's my kid) can be referred to as Lord/Lady FirstName (however in that universe, bastards are given different last names- in one region all illegitmate children have the last name Snow, in another region they're all named Waters or Stone or Sand, etc.)
- Lord Castell would refer to Victor, and Lady Castell to Celeste. Or if you're meeting say someone from House Whatever and you don't know that they are NOT the head of their house, you could say "Well met, Lord Whatever." Like when someone calls a boy Mr Lastname and he winces cause dude that's my dad? Even if it is technically correct. Like that.
- if you encounter a lord/lady of a noble family and you know his/her last name but not their first (ie you saw the banners or their shield or however it happened) and they are not the head of their house/high ranking: "Good day, my lord of Castell" Because they are of that family but they are not Lord Castell himself. You can call them this also if you are just being formal or perhaps are not ranked high enough to be comfortable calling them Lord Firstname (though in that case maybe it's best to use a standard 'my lord' and hope they don't find some other reason to lop your head off.)
- Technically also people tend to say something like "Donovan of House Castell" to denote someone born into that house but not in the main branch, but only if they want to make it clear about the status for some reason.
-Sir (well in ASoIaF it's spelled Ser, and yes I know I keep writing it like that without thinking but after 3 years of rpg's in Westeros the real word looks funny) is used for anyone who has been knighted. If you fight in a tourney you MUST have been knighted by that world's rules, and most of the knights are of noble blood anyway, so Sir/Lord gets used interchangeably for some, especially in their youth or until they become head of their family.
In general though it's just easier to say Lord Firstname Lastname and have it be a generic courtesy title. or Sir Firstname Lastname if they're knighted/fighting types.
11-07-2010, 08:07 PM
Ok so I'm confused (when am I not?) about knights. A knight would be Sir (Ser) Yronwood. What would his wife be? Or his sister? What about their children and especially a son before he is knighted himself? Also, does a knight always have a house?
11-07-2010, 08:28 PM
I'll answer from Song of Ice and Fire canon cause that's just easiest to go by and is close enough to early medieval chivalric and feudal titles:
Also, does a knight always have a house?
No. There are hedge knights who have been knighted but have no lands and no noble family- hedge knights are basically sellswords with a coat of arms. Then there are knights who are in the employ of a noble house but have no lands (half-step away from being hedge knights). Next come knights who have been granted a small holding by their lord, and thus have graduated up to landed gentry. Landed knights and their families become new nobility (not the only route to a title, but merchants and bureaucrats are boring so we don't have any yet).
The titles of a knight's family depend upon his status: does he have lands? If not then his wife and sisters have no titles. They might generically be addressed as "my lady" or as "mistress" or "some hedge-knight's woman." Depends. If a knight has lands then they're nobilty- minor ones, but still, they've achieved that much, and so the females may be called lady and the sons lords, although if they maintain a more martial orientation the sons will possibly prefer to be referred to as Ser Whatsit.
Makes it kind of awkward but then it is still easier than memorizing whether Esquires and Baronets outrank Viscounts and whether Viscounts outrank Lords and where on earth do you sit the Marquess when the Baron is at the same table?
06-19-2011, 09:24 PM
How is Beatrice still referred to as a princess?
She's the sister of King Merquis Sterlyn, and as such has a courtesy title for her lifetime of Princess. Aurora and Celeste function the same way: they are princesses of the blood royal, and while they hold the titles Lady Castell and Lady Letalis respectively they can also be referred to as Your Highness/Princess. It's a courtesy title, meaning it does not come with estates or benefits other than granting them higher precedence than say Lady Severne, who is only an Ashpool by birth.
Oberon Sterlyn can be called Prince Oberon OR Lord Oberon. Both are correct, the former is a courtesy, the latter is his by right of holding Ottersgate. If the Council decides it he may also become Lord Sterlyn as the senior surviving male of the Sterlyn line- though this would involve splitting the Crown Lands between Sterlyn of Ottersgate and Sterlyn of Solbra, or granting him another of the banner cities. His wife however is Lady Lavinia, unless a reigning monarch formally grants her a courtesy title of Princess, such as the one Ysolda holds (mostly because she was at court during Alrik's reign, while Lavinia was in Ottersgate).
Oberon's and Hugo's children may also hold the courtesy title of Prince/Princess, though recent Sterlyn custom has been only to grant children of monarchs that courtesy, so they are Lords/Ladies in all but the most formal of documents.
06-19-2011, 10:25 PM
should we put these in an FAQ?
06-20-2011, 04:06 AM
Yeah... or... make a section in rules/info under the Throne Room Etiquette heading?
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